THE    BIG    CHAT
Interview Series
     
  Discussion with Eddie Muller, March 7, 2002  
     
  Author of DARK CITY: The Lost World of Film Noir, DARK CITY DAMES: The Wicked Woman of Film Noir and a soon to be released new book in the works The ART OF FILM NOIR. No one in the last decade has worked harder to promote film noir than Eddie Muller.  

He is the co-director of the American Cinematheque's annual festival of Film Noir at the Egyptian Theatre in Hollywood every March & April.

   
     
 

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  MAURA:    Tonight in the DFD Ring, unifying the INF [International Noir Federation] and the WNA [World Noir Association] with his highly acclaimed 4th Annual Festival of Film Noir . . . is the hometown favorite and current champion, in the noir trunks . . .Fast Eddie Muller! I have a few combinations I'd like to try out on him first . . . but I promise not to work him over too hard. Everyone is a contender here . . . so get your licks in during the sparring session following . . . Fast One . . . answer these, if you please and in any order you prefer!

1. If Noiroholics could only see one rare and obscure film unveiling at the fest . . . what would you suggest?

2. What was the biggest coup for the fest in your estimation, in this assemblage of films and personnel?

3. Have you personally screened all the films to be presented and do you have a new, unheralded favorite?

4. Is there any director who you feel has been heretofore overlooked as an auteur, that will receive more acclaim, due to the fest's screening of some neglected gem?

5. Lastly, what personally have been some of the festival's most memorable moments since its inception?

EDDIE MULLER (FE):    Let me right at the top congratulate Dark Marc for making such a success of his Danger & Despair Circle and this forum. Kudos. And Maura, thanks for the pugnacious intro. At some point in the proceedings I may have to take a short break, as my wife is leaving for week and I already backed out of driving her to the airport. I WILL have to bid her adieu, however, toward the top of the hour. Okay, this is weird . . . the lights are dimming around here. There's a storm. If I disappear, you'll know why. Better get on with it . . .

1. If Noiroholics could only see one rare and obscure film unveiling at the fest . . . what would you suggest?

1. Tough call. Definitely the two rarest items in the series are Apology for Murder and Two of a Kind. I haven't seen either one! Not even Ann Savage has a tape of Apology. So I can't attest to whether they're worth flying cross-country to see . . . But I  can safely say that it's probably your only chance to see either one in a movie theater in this lifetime. Beyond that, it's a matter of personal taste. I'd fly cross-country to see Moonrise in this theater. It's not only the rarity of the film that matters--it's the rarity of seeing it on a big screen, as it was originally meant to be seen.

2. What was the biggest coup for the fest in your estimation, in this assemblage of films and personnel?

2. The biggest coup was managing to wrest Naked City from the clutches of the Greek government. There aren't many 35mm prints around, and my partner-in-crime Dennis Bartok at the American Cinematheque found the best one at the U of N. Carolina. After we'd scheduled it, the Greeks called and said we had to give it up, because they were honoring Jules Dassin with some National Medal of Honor or something. Ole Big Apple boy Dassin has lived in Greece for years--Melina Mercouri, that whole thing. They wanted to show Naked City as part of the tribute. We said the hell with that: we were first. So the Greeks got the State Department to lean on us and the Tarheels, but we didn't budge. Well, actually we traded: we were going to show Night and the City to close the festival, so we offered them that instead, since we didn't have a guest lined up with it. Such diplomacy. Maybe we averted an int'l incident.

3. Have you personally screened all the films to be presented and do you have a new, unheralded favorite?

3. To be honest, one of the great things about programming this fest is that I can request films I haven’t seen. By ensuring we have a sufficient number of high quality films, it gives us license to take some chances. That’s how we uncovered Decoy two years ago. I’d heard about it, but had never seen it. I don’t expect Two of a Kind or Apology to equal the delirious pleasure of Decoy, but one hopes . . . (Ann wanted us to show The Last Crooked Mile instead— what does that tell you?) I recently saw Shadow on the Wall for the first time and immediately said “We’ve got to show this.” Same with Whiplash, which I won’t claim is a "good" film, but is a real hoot for people into this kind of movie. I like the idea that we can “discover” something more than 50 years old.

4. Is there any director who you feel has been heretofore overlooked as an auteur, that will receive more acclaim, due to the fest's screening of some neglected gem?

4.  The first year we showed a triple bill of Felix Feist films: Devil Thumbs a Ride, The Threat, and Tomorrow is Another Day. I think a lot of people were surprised how good these films were, esp. Tomorrow (Fantastic!). I learned later that Feist’s family came to the screening and were thrilled that we’d acknowledged his work. His son, Raymond, is a hugely successful sci-fi novelist. Philippe Garnier after that did a big article in Liberation or Le Monde about Feist--even the French had missed him! Siodmak obviously dominates this year. After that, it’s lots of guys with “one shot” noir filmographies. So the films aren’t as well known. If you know me, you know that I think “auteurs” often get too much credit. So I’m pleased to show movies by lesser known directors like Pat Jackson, Irving Reis, and Joe Newman--because the movies are good, regardless of the director's reputation (or lack of one). In the past, we’ve showcased films by Richard Fleischer (the early B stuff), Phil Karlson, Russell Rouse, John Auer, Jack Berry, Cy Endfield, Irving Pichel, Andrew Stone, Hubert Cornfield, Gerd Oswald. Sadly, of that whole list, only Fleischer, Cornfield, and Newman are alive. I regret sometimes that I didn’t have the wherewithal to get this thing started ten years earlier.

5. Lastly, what personally have been some of the festival's most memorable moments since its inception?

5.  Okay, I'm cheating on this one because I knew I'd be asked this somewhere. So I've prepped my "Greatest Hits" list. Please don’t think I’m namedropping: I’m as tickled as anybody that these people came out for our shows, and there’s something a little magical about the confluence of generations within this beautiful, restored venue. So these are the moments I’ll always remember: Marie Windsor trying not to cry when she saw all 600 seats filled for Narrow Margin. Screening Detour for a packed house, doing the interview afterwards with Ann Savage. She said later it was "the high point of my career." Having star Beverly Michaels show up when we screened Wicked Woman--and her lovely admission that she came to honor the director, her late husband Russell Rouse. The huge ovation for Nightmare Alley, which had Coleen Gray running the waterworks full blast. Try and Get Me blowing away a young hipster crowd. Having to take cigarette breaks every 20 minutes with Barbara Hale during The Window. I think she was working up the nerve to make it through the second feature, Deadline at Dawn, which starred her late husband, Bill Williams. She tried to watch it, but got too emotional and had to leave. Ricardo Montalban with Mystery Street, declaring how angry it made him that Hollywood called him “Latin, Hispanic, Cuban, Venezuelan--everything but what I am! A Mexican! I am a Mexican! And proud of it!” Great nobility. He REALLY impressed me. An insane interview (Dennis did it) with Hubert Cornfield. Way too complicated to explain here, let’s just say that HC was one horny dude back in the day (still is, I suspect). A spill-over-the-top interview with Mamie Van Doren (and her entourage). We stretched the definition of noir past the breaking point so I could have some fun with Mamie. It was a hoot. Jean Simmons not being able to watch Angel Face because it brought back so many awful memories of Howard Hughes and Otto P. Instead, she hung out in the green room, ate a Big Mac with fries, and chain-smoked. And did it with class. Big Mothers’ Day crowd for Caged, and the interview with a sweet and sort of frightened Jan Sterling afterwards. SHE had fun, and that made me happy. Realizing our big "Re-Premiere" of Shakedown was doomed as soon as the title came on: The Shakedown— Universal sent the wrong movie. Fortunately, the audience loved this weird 1958 British film. Joan Leslie (what a doll!) coming out for a screening of Repeat Performance. Interviewing Jeff Corey between The Killers and Canon City. The guys don’t usually live as long, and it was a real treat to talk with him at some length about acting. An amazing man. Very gentle and genuine. And, of course, the memorable appearance of a less gentle soul, Lawrence Tierney (RIP). Okay, I guess that concludes the preliminaries. As soon as our "card girl" Maura steps lightly through the ropes, you can all fire away. I'll do my best to not have this lag too much, so excuse any answers that sound perfunctory.

MAURA:    Okay, ...everybody...step right up into the ring and challenge our pugilistic noir-do-well to some leftover jabs and body punches . . . of the noir variety!

MIKE K:    Hi. Enjoyed Dark City and Dark City Dames very much. In Dark City, you mention Lawrence Tierney's breakthrough movie "during the heyday of the noir crime drama" as being Dillinger. Is Dillinger, in your opinion, noir? Also Dark City shows three posters— Dangerously They Live, None Shall Escape, and Behind the Rising Sun. Noirs? By the way, I have seen Apology for Murder on tape and my favorite line is reporter Beaumont’s flirtation with Savage when she teases him about not being able to get a human interest story from her wealthy husband— “I’m human and plenty  interested.” I guess that line worked pretty good for him a decade later with June Cleaver.

FE:   It's more a gangster picture, really. Max Nossek isn't high on my list of noir stylists. And you should have heard the trash Tierney talked about him! As for the others you mentioned, I really included in Dark City as visual "codes" to make a point about U.S. wartime propaganda. None of those are noir.

ALAN:   Eddie, thanks for joining all of us tonight. Pardon my faux pas on a premature, nonquestion earlier (my bird decided to solo around the room and land on the keyboard!) Here are a couple of questions:

1. 2002 is now the fourth year of your film noir festival with the American Cinematheque at the Egyptian Theatre. Obviously, this festival is a rousing success. How did the festival get started and how much work is involved between yourself and Dennis Bartok and others in obtaining the films, lining up personal appearances of the stars, etc.?

2. Those of us who have read The Distance are cognizant of your father’s storied career as a boxing sportswriter based in San Francisco and your own involvement with the “sweet science.” What were your other influences that shaped your writing generally, and towards film noir and the book, Dark City specifically?

3. The actual process of writing words for a living always has fascinated this neophyte. Can you briefly give some insights into the Eddie Muller writing process; How, Why , When , What is tough, What comes naturally, etc.

 

1. 2002 is now the fourth year of your film noir festival with the American Cinematheque at the Egyptian Theatre. Obviously, this festival is a rousing success. How did the festival get started and how much work is involved between yourself and Dennis Bartok and others in obtaining the films, lining up personal appearances of the stars, etc.?

FE:   1. Dennis Bartok of the Cinematheque approached me to program the first festival in 1999 after he'd read Dark City. He'd given [it] to a bunch of people as a Xmas present, including some directors they'd had as guests at previous events, and it just took off from there. I did a piece for Los Angeles magazine called "The Queens of Mean" about seven classic femme fatales, which was done to promote the festival. That eventually turned into Dark City Dames, after I got to know the gals.  I really have the easy job: I just suggest what we should show. Dennis and Chris D. do the legwork of actually tracking down the prints. Marvin Paige helps line up the guests. Then I swoop into town and steal all the glory. Nice gig.

2. Those of us who have read The Distance are cognizant of your father’s storied career as a boxing sportswriter based in San Francisco and your own involvement with the “sweet science.” What were your other influences that shaped your writing generally, and towards film noir and the book, Dark City specifically?

2.   Inspirations are all over the place. Old school, I'm afraid. Old newspaper guys. Musicians who've been dead 20 years. Guys who've written their last book. 

3. The actual process of writing words for a living always has fascinated this neophyte. Can you briefly give some insights into the Eddie Muller writing process; How, Why , When , What is tough, What comes naturally, etc.

3.   As for the routine: I do my best work in the morning (sorry to disappoint the nighthawks). Nothing of great interest to report, I'm afraid. I tend to write nonfiction on a word processor, fiction longhand. But not always.

MIKE:    Eddie, Boyo-- First of all: a little tuchis kissing. I credit you with more of my current appreciation of film noir than anyone else, and for putting me on to Dark Marc and the DFD board--a source of constantly renewed pleasure. Ta everso. Can’t wait for you next book--The Distance was a great read. Regards to your lovely wife. Apologies for cutting out early--I’ve already stalled an hour on your account, my man. PLEASE POST or EMAIL THE SCHEDULE ONCE AGAIN. Next. How much of the total US noir opus do you think has now been unearthed and seen in festivals like yours? If there yet rare films to be found, are there any of more than historical note, i.e. not just of interest to the die-hard? Finally . . . and this is le plus important, nonstop intensest, MOST penetrating question of all . . . Ready, Eddie . . .? You want that Jameson’s up or with rocks? Hope to see you in the Southland. I’m buyin’.

FE:   I'm having one right now, in fact . . . so if the typing gets messy, you'll know (the rocks all melted while I was answering Alan's question!). Thanks for the nice words about The Distance. And I think Marc has put a link to the official schedule at the top of the board. 2. As for me, I think the next natural move is into foreign noir. I'm curious to see how it’s done in other countries. I just don't think we're going to discover a missing "classic" here. Fun stuff, yes. Great stuff . . . doubtful.

MIKE:   Who says I never read directions? "And I think Marc has put a link to the official schedule at the top of the board. " DUH-uh. "I'm curious to see how it’s done in other countries. " Me too. Alain Silver got into this riff last week about the persecution by the fascists as a major ingredient in noir courtesy of the German émigrés. Where are the noirs from Italy, Spain, Russia and Japan??? Beaucoup fascists there.

mac:   Good evening, "Fast One," and thank you for participating in tonight's discussion. I'll ask an obvious question. Why aren't most of the movies in the AC noir fests available on home video and DVD (e.g., Christmas Holiday, Whiplash, The Shadow on the Wall). Is it a rights problem? I love seeing classic Hollywood cinema on the big screen, but I also would love to own them as well. Regards!

FE:   I think it's less a rights problem than an ignorance problem. I'll restrain myself from jumping on my soapbox regarding the death of culture and all that, and the corporate takeover of America--and just say that the business, all business, is run by bean counters today. Including the archival efforts of many movie studios. It's a money thing, too. First, they don't care. Then if someone else comes along who cares, the people in charge get worried that they're missing out on something and hold onto it even tighter. Fact is, unless you've got money to lose, it's hard to buy into the game. We had a little thing with exhibition rights to The Spiral Staircase. They're now controlled by Disney. Get my drift?

PRU:   Reckless Moment. The print I saw of this film was dark and lackluster. Is the one you are showing of better quality and do you see this as a typical noir or more in the romantic Ophul's style? Thank you, Eddie.

FE:   Pru, where'd you see the print? I don't always see these things first (as my story about Shakedown will attest), so I can't say if it's the same. We try our best to confirm that the print is the best available. Reckless Moment is great because Ophuls is applying that graceful style to all-American pulp. It's not one or other. It's the mix that makes it.

ALAN:   Eddie, just a couple more and that's it! As you can know brevity was never my strong point! Eddie, many thanks for hipping me to DFD and all of the great things you do. How did you design or evolve the theme and structure for your book Dark City Dames? In particular, could you briefly describe the trusting relationships between yourself, Marie Windsor, Jane Greer and the other women of film noir that seemed to be the sinew of the book? Do you have another nonfiction book or article on tap concerning film noir? Will you interview Jack Palance (dual one-armed pushups?) at the Egyptian Theatre when Panic in the Streets (1950) is screened? Salud

FE:   My thing with Dames was pure serendipity. The book was originally conceived as a more mainstream picture book kind of thing, including deceased actresses as well. When I met these women I got the sense there was something much deeper and more valuable to be gleaned from them. Thankfully, Judith Regan, who published it, felt the same way. I was frankly surprised when she okayed me doing the book in two distinct halves, the 1940s and today. Some people have complained that not all the actresses are truly "noir," but I don't really care. The book is about more than that, and I sort of "cast" it to make poignant parallels between their various stories. As for the women trusting me, it's not that big a deal. I treated them like people, not movie stars. And I listened to what they had to say. I let them decide what to say, and I wasn't obsessed with their careers, which frankly they find a little off-putting. I just finished a HUGE book of international film noir poster art that will be coming out in October from Overlook Press. Pricey. Save those dimes. If Palance shows up, we'll have a blast. Can't promise the push-ups, however.

MAURA:   Much appreciation, Fast Eddie! You can bend our cauliflower ears again, any time you're willing to go for the long count at Dark Film Discussions! Thanks for showing us your fancy footwork, that once again made the Film Fest a reality. Nonpugnaciously, Maura P.S. This bout ends whenever you decide, Eddie!

FE:    It must be past your bedtime but since I'm on the Left Coast, I'd be happy to answer anything else, even if it's posted later. If not, I hope some of you can make it to the festival. If not ours, than maybe Art Lyons' wingding in June out in Palm Springs. Thanks, Maura. Time for your beauty sleep?

mac:    Fast One, I don't know if you had the opportunity to read the tributes to Lawrence Tierney that I linked to in an earlier post. Based on memories of those who knew him (if but briefly), the LT interview by Rick McKay in Scarlet Street, and of course, your essential profile Lawrence Tierney Relieves Himself, he sounded like a real character. Care to express any more opinions/feelings about The Devil? Because his death occurred relatively close to the festival, any chance that there might be some kind of AC tribute to Lawrence Tierney who was certainly a noir icon? Regards!

FE:    mac, If you could have seen the comedy that just ensued in front of my house! Cabs, cats, luggage, cells phone mania!! What the hell! Okay, on to L.T. I really didn't know him, and even though I've gotten lots of mileage out of that story of our night at the Egyptian, I certainly did feel there was a remarkable person under the anger and bluster. He could spout John Donne off the top of his head, not by rote, but with conviction. The thing I took away from my time with him was that at a certain point, when you've live enough, appearances just don't matter anymore. This may be only bonehead pop psych stuff, but I felt that he hated the bullshit of people coming at him like moths to the flames, but he also hated himself for needing it. You know, the night after that whole thing during Born to Kill we showed Devil Thumbs a Ride as part of that Felix Feist triple bill. Tierney showed up again, in foul humor, while Ann Savage was enjoying HER moment in the spotlight. Larry was told to settle down or take a hike. He walked, hollering "That's MY ####ing picture you're showing!"

mac:    Still waters run deep, but so, apparently, do raging waters. ". . . but I felt that he hated the bullshit of people coming at him like moths to the flames, but he also hated himself for needing it." Oh, I definitely sensed that attitude in McKay's Scarlet Street interviews with Tierney. I was surprised to discover in McKay's interviews that Tierney was more cultured and learned than his screen persona and tabloid "battlin' brute" rep made him seem to be; i.e., he had theatrically performed Shakespeare— the mind boggles! Regards!

FE:    Thanks, mac. I'm going to check out that piece in Scarlet Street.

ALAN:    mac, I just got done reading the Scarlet Street piece on Tierney. A most interesting article on a very complex and fascinating man. Thanks!

mac:    You're very welcome, Alan (another gentleman, prince, scholar, and champ). I must correct my erroneous statement re Tierney and Shakespeare. He recited The Bard and acted on the stage but McKay did not report that Tierney acted in Shakespearean plays. Regards! (Good night, Sweet Princes and Princesses! Willst see All on the morrow!)

ALAN:    Female Jungle (1956). I watched Tierney in this film last night and he was quite credible, particularly compared with some of the actors in the cast. The storyline and how it unfolded was pretty good. However, the film is a real cheapie and at times it exuded a definite home movie look: huge close-ups of faces, zero lighting, and very bad acting. Director Bruno Ve Sota also played the husband of a barmaid (he was better at directing). Old pro John Carradine seemed out of place in this one: I kept looking for him to don a cape! Also notable was the appearance of Jayne Mansfield as a fast filly. Anyone else care to opine on this one?

MAURA:    Bungle in the Jungle is more like it but I still enjoyed LT, Alan! P.S. And I don't ever go to bed before the bewitching hour of 2:00 a.m.!

KAREN:    I really wasn't impressed with Female Jungle--except, really, for Jayne Mansfield's performance. In both this and The Burglar, she really surprised me, and completely altered my earlier impression of her acting, which was based on movies like The Girl Can't Help It. I wish she'd stuck with roles like these--she might've been around longer. As for the film itself, I didn't have high expectations going in (for some reason), but I was disappointed nonetheless. I thought that the revelation of the killer was a cop-out, and I didn't appreciate the ambiguity of what really happened to Tierney's character during those four hours that he couldn't remember. Feh!

FE:    My apologies, Alan, for not really giving full answers to your earlier questions. I was going to e-mail you separately, but my e-mail is on the fritz. Very problematic. I'd love to comment on Female Jungle, but I've not seen it. Here's a confession: I've really curtailed my movie watching. I was talking about this the other day with Marc Kagan. He was asking if I'd seen a particular Gloria Grahame film and I admitted that I was consciously NOT watching several of her movies— because I still wanted her to surprise me with something NEW in five or ten years. I hate new American movies so much that I treat the old stuff like it's new. I'm trying to dole it out, where in the past I couldn't devour it fast enough. So I'm glad there's still more Tierney for me to see. As for the rest of your earlier question about writing: where fiction is concerned, doing character is the most fun. Plot is harder. So unlike a lot writers (Elmore Leonard, for example), I have to completely construct the storyline before I start the "writing." Regards. See you in Hollywood!

ALAN:    Eddie, thank you for the considerate answers. Some of my questions were pretty elephantine. I also go up and down with my movie watching frequency. Similarly, I don't care for too many new films (my 25-year-old daughter recently introducing me to a new friend: ". . . and my Dad likes mostly black and white films!") I recently eschewed Black Hawk Down for Indestructible Man (1956)! Like mac, my full-time gig can be a killer--I get up at 5:30 am most days--but it keeps me in Pokeno chips. Finally, I also have other interests and obligations. But . . . I definitely have the passion for the film and writing thing and passion is what keeps me going. So, I'll see you in L.A. I'll flip you for flannel cakes at Musso Franks. mac:  I'm gonna lay down now on accounta dat's da way Da Racket's fixed dis bout. But before I do . . . What, if anything, is happening with the Dark City Collection of movies to be released on video (and I hope DVD)? You're a gent, a prince, a scholar, and a champ, Fast One! Thanks for dropping by and for your patience, time, and generosity! Regards, mac (takin' a dive)

FE:    The first DVD is going to be released in May. Kansas City Confidential. To be quite honest about it, I'm not sure what's happening on that front. The guy behind it, Darin Scott, is terrific. He actually started the whole project as something to do in anticipation of the writers' strike last year (he's a writer/producer). We both knew that if heavy work called, it would have to go on the back burner. My work can't get much heavier right now, and I'm sure Darin's producing another film or something. We plan to do Too Late for Tears and The Man Who Cheated Himself next. They'll be distributed through Image Entertainment. Our hope is that if the numbers show a big enough audience for this stuff, it'll give us some leverage to go after titles that have never been on VHS or DVD. But you can only dedicate so much time when there's zero dollars in the kitty. For us, it's a labor of love. Others can't be so magnanimous.

JAY M:    FE, You can count on me to buy Kansas and the following ones. Hope this project works out! mac: “But you can only dedicate so much time when there's zero dollars in the kitty. For us, it's a labor of love. Others can't be so magnanimous.” I'm hip. At the risk of climbing out on a limb, how does a noir aficionado . . . uhh . . . go about becoming a "patron of the arts," so to speak. Regards,

mac:   (who's interested in speaking with his checkbook)

FE:    Oh, willing patron, there's not a lot a patron can do (unless you're in Rhonda Fleming's class). It's about distribution, and who controls it. Making DVDs and such isn't that hard (look at Mau Mau Sex Sex!) It's getting sufficient distribution so that you can earn your dough back that's the tough part. At some point, you either have to do it ALL yourself, or convince a player that there's enough potential return to put something into it. Kino's done great stuff. They seem stable. We'll see . . . in the meantime, don't disappear, mac.

mac:    My surname ain't Rockefeller (as is painfully evident by my full-time gig, which forces me to retire early in the evening) but I do believe in supporting the arts, particularly the motion picture arts and film preservation. Again, thanks for your time, Fast One! Best regards and much success to you in all your endeavors! Good night, All!

 

 
  ___________________________________  
  Eddie Muller's interview was copied and archived by mac. Maura Willheim led the interview before the board was opened to a question and answer session. March 7th, 2002.   
   

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