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MAURA:    We would like to welcome you to the Dark Film Discussions forum. First off, can we discuss for a few minutes the new Film Noir Reader 3, that has just been published, that was in collaboration with Robert Porfirio, and James Ursini? I am going to post all my questions in one group, and you may answer them at your leisure, and in any order, for the benefit of all the DFD posters. Everyone is then welcome to join in the discussion, by submitting questions under your answers . . . first come, first served. Have fun everybody and thanks again Alain for coming aboard and best wishes on the success of this fine book!

1. Film Noir Reader 3 is subtitled Interviews with Filmmakers of the Classic Noir Period. What determining factors caused you to choose these particular eight selectees originally to be interviewed?

2. What are you most proud of about this compendium of interviews and commentaries in Noir films? What caused you the most headaches or difficulty in producing Film Noir Reader 3?

3. Were there any surprises or revelations, even for you, in your interviews with the most recent members of this select group of directors, in 2001 . . . namely de Toth, Wise, and Boetticher?

4. James Wong Howe's interview remarking on how differently he lit Burt Lancaster in Come Back, Little Sheba as opposed to Sweet Smell of Success fascinated me. After Howe what other cinematographers do you personally most admire in the Noir tradition?

5. Very seldom does one hear much discussed about the relationship of the film score to the Noir sensibility. Is that why you included the very informative and enlightening interview with noted composer Miklos Rozsa in FNR3?

ALAIN SILVER (AJS):   Sorry to be late. I had a small problem with my monitor.

Let me answer question 1 to start. 

Question:

1. Film Noir Reader 3 is subtitled Interviews with Filmmakers of the Classic Noir Period. What determining factors caused you to choose these particular eight selectees originally to be interviewed?

These were mostly selections of Bob Porfirio to help with his dissertation research back in the 70s. He asked a lot of people and interviewed everybody who said yes.

2. What are you most proud of about this compendium of interviews and commentaries in Noir films? What caused you the most headaches or difficulty in producing Film Noir Reader 3?

2. I had the most problems finding the chapter head illustrations, pictures of obscure directors and others who worked in the classic. The biggest overall problem was taken on by Jim Ursini, that is editing the hundreds of pages of transcript, many of them free-form ramblings, of Bob's original interviews into something more coherent and to the point.

3. Were there any surprises or revelations, even for you, in your interviews with the most recent members of this select group of directors, in 2001 . . . namely de Toth, Wise, and Boetticher?

3. No surprises really. Bob Wise needed a lot of leading questions to get him to say something new. He's done hundreds of interviews and tends to fall back--as do many older directors--on his tried-and-true stories. I brought along a lot of photos and other materials. Andre doesn't need any excuses to tell stories and did not need much prompting. Since I have been on a DGA committee with both of them for years, I knew going on how to proceed. Budd Boetticher was a phone interview (I had only met him twice before) and he was quite resistant to any genre labels being put on his pictures. I knew I would not get a full-length interview out of him, but I spent an hour getting what little there is in the book. Unlike Bob or Andre, Budd still had hopes of doing more pictures, which can make one reluctant to talk about past films, as if one's career was fossilized. Sadly for Budd, his career is now officially closed.

4. James Wong Howe's interview remarking on how differently he lit Burt Lancaster in Come Back, Little Sheba as opposed to Sweet Smell of Success fascinated me. After Howe what other cinematographers do you personally most admire in the Noir tradition?

4. Obviously, John Alton is preeminent among the cameramen of that. His book--Painting with Light--which was out of print for 40 years before the recent reissue by U.C. Press, influenced a lot of my early thinking about visual analysis of films, not just noir. Jim Ursini's interview with John Seitz was also done long ago, so unfortunately our questions were not always the best--but Seitz's work with John Farrow at Paramount is fully as impressive and prototypically noir as the pictures with Billy Wilder.

5. Very seldom does one hear much discussed about the relationship of the film score to the Noir sensibility. Is that why you included the very informative and enlightening interview with noted composer Miklos Rozsa in FNR3?

5. While selecting Rozsa was Bob Porfirio's doing back in the 70s, it was one of the interviews that most intrigued me when I first heard Bob's list of who he had on tape. I have produced several Rozsa albums for two labels (the now-defunct Bay Cities and Citadel) and he would have been the cornerstone of a noir CD which was planned at Bay Cities before its demise. While a lot of what Rozsa said is also in his autobiography (A Double Life), the comments have more spontaneity as interview responses. To elaborate again on how this book came to be, Bob had co-edited the Noir Encyclopedia first edition back in the 70s and more recently contributed to the first two Readers and The Noir Style. The Readers, in fact, come out of discussions Bob and I had with an editor at the UC Press about publishing his dissertation. It took book three or four years of urging to get these old transcripts out of storage; but since all of his interview subjects except Wilder and Scott are now dead, it's not a book that could have been produced from anything other than old material.

JOHN SUHR:    I was a teenager when Phil Karlson was in my town directing The Phenix City Story, as the town is just across the river (I'm in Georgia in Columbus ). He was directing the film very soon after the town had a big cleanup and he used the actual names of the good guys for the most part and they, naturally, changed the names of the bad guys . . . multiple reasons from possible law suits or even from threats of bodily harm. People in that town are still sensitive about naming names and telling all the tales of this southern gambling and crime city. Then about 20 years or so later, Phil Karlson goes to Tennessee and films the Buford Pusser Story Walking Tall. It so happens that SOME OF THE SAME CROOKS in that town were ones who fled Phenix City in the 50's. Did you ever talk with Karlson and does anyone know if he *knew* this about the town? Wouldn't that have put him in some danger if the crooks realized the same director was zinging them again? Also, what do you think of The Phenix City Story?

AJS:    I'm not a big Karlson fan. I like Phenix City (mostly on account of the Mainwaring script) but I prefer Kansas City Confidential. Like most directors of the era, Karlson pretty much took on what came along. Mainwaring made a few other comments in the excised portions of the interview that suggested Karlson did not have much interest in the real events that took place outside the scripted ones.

JOHN SUHR:   IMDb lists Crane Wilbur as the scriptwriter. The facts were loosely portrayed. There was no "little black girl thrown on the lawn" and I don't think John Patterson got in any fistfights. I thought the script was Hollywood formula and there was little attempt for accuracy except for John McIntyre's dead-on impression of Albert Patterson . . . we knew the Patterson family personally.

AJS:   Several people doctored the Mainwaring script (see his interview in FNR3 for more pointed comments). Like other "sensationalist" noir, it was doctored again after shooting. Perhaps that's why the result is a little uneven.

JOHN SUHR:   This is a first for me and others as well, and I appreciate your taking the time to answer questions and I look forward to reading your book.

MARC AKA SAMSKAG:    Hi Alain. Here's my question: What are your favorite sub-genre film noirs like:

1. Women's Pictures, ex: Mildred Pierce

2. Sci-fi Pictures, ex: The Invasion Of The Body Snatchers & I Married A Monster From Outer Space

3. Thriller Pictures, ex: The Uninvited & The Haunting Regards.

AJS:  1. Reckless Moment

2. This is noir sub-genre? I like Body Snatchers, but if I have to pick 50s sci-fi, I'll take The Thing.

3. If you mean quasi-supernatural, obviously Night has a Thousand Eyes; but, also most of the Lewton productions, particularly (apologies to Bob Wise) Tourneur's I Walked with A Zombie.

CARL TAIT:    Hello, Prof. Silver, and thanks very much for joining us. A few questions: 1. Why was the ending of "Kiss Me Deadly" shortened before release? Since the change introduced a critical ambiguity not present in the original, the modification seems atypical of Hollywood filmmaking (both endings are included on the DVD, as you surely know). 2. What is your preferred *spoken* English plural of "film noir"? 3. A question you must get constantly but one that's still of interest to those of us who don't know your answer: what are your personal favorite films noirs? Not a Top 25 list; just a handful of four or five films that give you the most pleasure. 4. A more complicated question, which you should feel free to skip: do you think that the characters in a film noir must have an existential worldview, or is it sufficient for the film itself to project such a view to any intelligent person watching the movie? I'm thinking particularly of films with semi-happy endings ("Everything has worked out for the best!") at which the audience either guffaws or writes off as dumb luck, nothing more. Many thanks again for your time.

AJS:    1.  In discussing it with those persons at MGM/UA who finally restored it, the best that anyone could determine was that the US negative was accidentally damaged sometime after the original release. The "overseas" negative which was stored in London was the one used for the restored version. As you know, Aldrich never intended the footage to be lost and, whenever he was asked (the last time by Arnold and Miller in their book), would say he had no idea why footage was missing. 2. I use "film noir" as the plural (as opposed to "a film noir") but may also use noir films. I never use "films noir" or "film noirs,” although I presume the latter would pass muster with the Chicago Manual of Style 3. I have seen Double Indemnity more than any other classic period film (10 or 12 times) but a lot of that was for recent research. I gave a 10 Best list to Variety back in the late 80s and I don't even remember what I said. Personal favorites would mostly be Siodmak and Farrow pictures, Criss Cross, The Killers, His Kind of Woman, The Big Clock. I can't remember the last time I looked at a Preminger or Lang. 4. I don't think any character's abstract "world view" need be expressed unless it's part of the drama. If you mean, are sardonic or hard-boiled outlooks more evocative, I'd say no. The most tragic noir victims are the most idealistic.

MIKE SIEGEL:    Are you saying that the ending [of Kiss Me Deadly] was not censored by the Kefauver Commission, as I think one of your grad students has written?

AJS:    I didn't know I had any grad students, but as far as I know there was absolutely no censorship involved, the opinions of everyone from Robin Wood on down notwithstanding. All the original 35mm prints had the full ending. The negative was damaged sometime before the 16mm prints were struck--and since they were often used in film school screenings, the legend of censorship was born. As Aldrich often commented, he had more problems with Madie Comfort holding the microphone that with anything else in KMD including the ending.

MIKE SIEGEL:    Whoops! I thought you were Glenn Ericksen's prof at UCLA. Good night; a great evening, Alain! mac: . . . from the film journal Images: http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue02/infocus/kissdead.htm

AJS:    And those who want a sleazier context, I did a longer version of this for Femme Fatale magazine.

JOHN SUHR:    Do you like noir spoofs? I enjoyed Steve Martin's Dead Men Don’t Wear Plaid, which showed that he understood the genre, then I'm equally crazy about all the Leslie Nielsen's Naked Gun movies. I also consider Colombo episodes noir spoofs in many ways, then there's the entire Pink Panther series of films. I also have Beat the Devil but the humor there is truly dry for my tastes. Can you name other noir spoofs and what is your opinion--do you enjoy them or are they a bother?

AJS:     I am not generally a spoof fan--but some from the era such as My Favorite Brunette and Siodmak's Fly by Night (which I know some would argue is not a spoof) are quite interesting. Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid is okay and odd in that it is Rozsa's last score, but in a digital era, it now seems like a lot of work for some small laughs.

JAY McINTYRE:    Is there a reason why No Man of Her Own and The Web aren't listed in the Film Noir Encyclopedia? If there is a fourth edition of FNR will they be listed? Thanks.

AJS:    There were a lot of editorial choices made, and not all were a consensus of the four editors. Jim Ursini went through the same process in the third edition essay of additional titles and, when we disagreed, I deferred to his choices. We've been asked to do a fourth edition but neither of us is terribly enthusiastic about (that being Jim Ursini and me, as Elizabeth Ward and Carl Macek have retired from the fray and Bob Porfirio doesn't have enough spare time.) We'll decide in a couple of months.

ALAN RODE:    Two questions for Mr. Alain Silver. 1. I recently viewed an American Cinema PBS program on film noir where Paul Schrader, among others, claimed that film noir is a genre bounded by a finite time period (1940-1960) or an era that is long over and cannot be recaptured. I note that your Film Noir Encyclopedic Reference to the American Style includes both film noirs from what you refer to as the “classic period” up to 1960 and other “neo-noirs” such as Chinatown and Body Heat. Do you agree with Schrader and others that film noir is a time-sensitive genre that cannot be recaptured by contemporary filmmakers? 2. What criteria, or subjective decision-making process led you to include certain films in your Film Noir Encyclopedic Reference book (a great and seminal work, by the way) such as The French Connection and French Connection II and omit others such as “Slaughter on Tenth Avenue (1957)? P.S. As others on this board can tell you, it’s challenging for me not to take any omission of Charles McGraw personally! Thanks for coming on our board and talking with us tonight! Cordially.

AJS:    1. Before there was an Encyclopedia, Schrader, Janey Place , Rick Thompson, Tim Hunter and I were going to do a film noir essay book for Indiana UP. We had a contract and were in the planning stages when folks started to drop out, but we all agreed that noir was a movement and, yes, it was time-bound like all movements. I agree with Todd Erickson's assertion (and since he is the first person I know who used the term "neo-noir," it is a subject to which he has given much thought) that classic period noir is a movement and neo-noir is a genre, that is an imitation of elements of the earlier manifestation. 2. I touched on that in an earlier reply. A lot of the editors gave up on personal choices (mine were The Man I Love and Impact) because we couldn't include every possible picture and not have a book of twice the length. And there were also the limitations of the era. When you haven't [watched] a picture in a while and there's no videotape, how do you do the research to write about?

JESSE TODD DOCKERY:    As a genre, Film Noir seems to have garnered more "legitimate" academic respect than the conventions of Horror and Science Fiction, even though the practice of the latter two genres have continued to evolve from the inception of cinema into the present. What qualities have provided Film Noir its seemingly more validated critical approval?

AJS:    A French name. I am perfectly serious. Also it is hard to create a really awful or lead illustration for a book or article on film noir (and here I am thinking of the cover of the first edition of my book on vampire film). Finally, film noir is American, and American film dominated the prewar world cinema. What could be better for French and British critics to argue over.

MIKE SIEGEL:    Dr. Silver, 1. I’m a neurologist (noirologist?) with an interest in how films noirs have dealt with amnesia, particularly the kind after head injury. Repression amnesia--e.g. Spellbound, The Locket--is psychological and I don’t want to go there. Could you give me some guidance into choices for best film illustrations? I am planning to use the recent Memento and Street of Chance.

2. WW II caused much of the societal change that is reflected in the classic noir cycle. Yet, there were noir films and style before WW II and the fiction that spawned the screenplays for many seminal films noirs were written prewar. While I realize it’s hard to ignore such a world and humanity-changing event, I wonder if you could speculate on the shape noir would have taken if the war had not occurred.

3. Forgetting SINGLE instances or favorites, whose work in your opinion best embodies the essence of film noir: Director? Actor/Actress? Cinematographer? Screenwriter?

AJS:    First, a personal note: as a neurologist, you can probably understand why I don't think a Ph.D. rates a "Dr." salutation; but, thanks anyway. Also, while I have lectured occasionally, I escaped from academia many years ago, so I am not a Professor either.

1. I’m a neurologist (noirologist?) with an interest in how films noirs have dealt with amnesia, particularly the kind after head injury. Repression amnesia--e.g. Spellbound, The Locket--is psychological and I don’t want to go there. Could you give me some guidance into choices for best film illustrations? I am planning to use the recent Memento and Street of Chance.

1. This may be too long to answer completely right now (there are a few others in the queue), but I would recommend Somewhere in the Night. There are also amnesia aspects (either style or partial memory loss) in many other pictures. Most of the other Woolrich adaptations do not have the weaknesses of carried over into Street of Chance from Black Curtain, the novel. The lost time aspects of Big Clock (which I meant to write earlier in that personal favorite question, not Big Night) Ride the Pink Horse, and Dark Corner, even Buzz's confusion in the otherwise pretty mediocre Blue Dahlia are, for me, more interesting than most of the straight amnesia stories. Although, if one would have taken the core premise of Black Curtain and thrown away the bad Woolrich, it might have been a much better result.

2. WW II caused much of the societal change that is reflected in the classic noir cycle. Yet, there were noir films and style before WW II and the fiction that spawned the screenplays for many seminal films noirs were written prewar. While I realize it’s hard to ignore such a world and humanity-changing event, I wonder if you could speculate on the shape noir would have taken if the war had not occurred.

2. Now really who could speculate on this? Noir was born out of fascist oppression. Am I to suppose if there had been no war, the fascists would have killed off the noir creators?

3. Forgetting SINGLE instances or favorites, whose work in your opinion best embodies the essence of film noir: Director? Actor/Actress? Cinematographer? Screenwriter?

3. Director? Hard choice, but I'll have to go with Aldrich then Siodmak and Farrow Actor/Actress? May surprise some: Robert Ryan/Gloria Grahame Cinematographer? No surprise here, Alton Screenwriter? W.R. Burnett with honorable mention to Sam Fuller and Bezzerides

MIKE SIEGEL:   1. I'll settle on Alain and skip the honorifics.

2. Unless I'm mistaken, they all got here before the war. Unless you mean killed by the  fascists here . . . Thanks for your candor and sense of humor.

AJS:    1. That's how we do it in Hollywood .

2. Unless I'm mistaken, they all got here before the war. Unless you mean killed by the  fascists here . . . Thanks for your candor and sense of humor.

2. Nothing so arcane, I'm afraid. I was thinking more along the lines of Kevin Brownlow's mockumentary, It Happened Here, that postulated what England would be like if the Germans had successfully invaded [it]. So what would noir have been without the émigrés and the war? Nonexistent or never defined, I have to think.

mac:   Good evening, Mr. Silver, welcome, and thank you for visiting this forum. After doing a bit of Web research on you, I was surprised to discover that not only are you an author, you are also a poet, actor, producer, and director. Bravo! Which one of these pursuits gives you the most pleasure and why? When do you anticipate the completion of your productions Hollywood 1-5-7-7 (a roman a clef involving Raymond Chandler) and Noir (about Barbara Payton)? Regards.

AJS:    I am not much of an actor. I just finished a polish on a novel version of 1577 last week and will be sending it out soon. I have pulled the script while I wait to see what happens with that. I am working on the Conrad script next (Storm and Dust) then we'll see on the Payton. I also have a concept involving Leigh Brackett, Faulkner, the making of Big Sleep, and the Hawks/Zanuck croquet tournaments in development. As you may guess from the above, I prefer writing (aside from a couple of scenes I wrote for Beat), but have not had anything actually shot with professional actors since a Showtime movie four years ago.

mac:    (quote) "Make sure you put all the gun shots and all the tits in it." http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/alain_silver.htm Merci, Monsieur! Best regards on your future endeavors!

AJS:    Seems like you've encountered some of my earlier comments. Thanks for paying attention.

JOHN SUHR:    As a critic, do you think some see *more* in films than the writer intended? I haven't had the pleasure of reading your book or your reviews but I have read others through the years. After viewing the actual films, being familiar with the actors true personae and considering the simpler times in which some were written, I sometimes feel that SOME reviewers see infinitely more *facets*, twists, turns and subtle messages than the writer or director ever dreamed of, or had a clue to their being. Similarly, The Beatles once said that they recorded a lot of balderdash lyrics, pure nonsense and there were psychologists all over the world ANALYZING what they were trying to say. They would roll in the floor laughing at the interpretations. Likewise, especially in the "B" genre of low budgets and low-paid writers and multiple script changes, edits and other curve-balls that occur in filming--do you consider that some more "in-depth" reviews see subtleties and assumed *messages* that never existed in the original creation of the films. I would even suggest that certain ad-libbed nuances by individual actors could change the overall tone of the film like the twist of a Rubik’s Cube. In a nutshell--I believe that many films we love are simpler stories closer to the surface plot than some reviewer with zeal for the title may assume. What do you think?

AJS:    The simple answer is I don't care what anyone intended. What I see in films is what I believe the phenomenological author intended. What others see is the same for them. Critics suggest readings, which (if properly done) enrich the experience. But, ideally no one should read what any critic has to say before seeing the film. Of course, who has the time to see everything--hence reviewers. As a producer, what I see in a script are possibilities: scenes from which a talented director and actors might create dramatic (or comic) moments and stitch those together into a compelling narrative. I can also tell you that, no matter how well intentioned or talented those involved may be, those possibilities are more often missed than realized.

MIKE SIEGEL:    Dr. Silver, as a physician, I see a big difference between illness and character flaws. I have the idea that films like Double Life and Leave Her to Heaven are tragedies rather than film noir because they deal with unfortunate pathology, rather than garden variety human foibles to which we are ALL prone. Your thoughts? Thanks for your time and cordiality.

AJS:    I don't think the sociopathic character (Leave Her to Heaven) is the best type of narrative core for noir--but how is compulsive behavior necessarily tragic AND why are noir and tragedy mutually exclusive? The compulsions of the actor in Double Life are akin to those of the con man in Reckless Moment. The core of noir is the realization, whether through mischance or error, that fate has looked unfavorably on you. Some noir figures meet that fate tragically, some don't.

CYNTHIA:    Thanks Mr. Silver, Dark Marc, Monica and everybody who made this possible! This was awesome and adds to my enjoyment of more films. I read all this in awe. I have millions of questions but none better than those asked. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

MAURA:    Whenever this After Hours Noir Joint closes . . . just want to say thank you again, Alain Silver, for stopping in and indulging us! Much appreciation for your time expended and all the in-depth answers.

AJS:    You're all most welcome--sorry that my typing could not keep pace with your questions, which were quite thoughtful. Since it is early here on the west coast, I will go back and pick up comments on a couple of the threads. I will post a URL below, should anyone want to see my bibliography page--which does have links to the online pieces at Images magazine and the Film Noir Reader One site (http://members.aol.com/alainsil/biblio.htm).

JESSE:    What's the fate of BEAT? I'd read about this film some time ago ignorant, of Mr. silver's involvement. Since I was kicking around Burroughs's name here recently, I wonder what the deal is on its completion/distribution. Seemed like a novel idea for a film to me . . .

AJS:    There is now a domestic deal for video with Lion's Gate. All that is required is for one of my rather dispirited (for very good reason) fellow producers to get together with me and/or the post-production supervisor and assemble the elements needed for delivery. In anticipation of that, I just put the Web site back up on one of my servers and will try to update it when I know the release date.

mac:   Has your book on Roger Corman been published yet? I haven't seen it in bookstores. (http://members.aol.com/alainsil/biblio.htm)

AJS:   I actually have a call in to one of the Silman-James' editors, who keep telling me any day now, because a guy who loaned us stills in 1999 would like to get them back. Jim Ursini and I turned in the manuscript in March of 2000, and that is a long time to publication for Silman-James but pretty standard for Overlook. By the way, I don't know what the cover will look like, I just cobbled that one together to have something on the page.

mac:   What literature on film noir do you highly regard and recommend; i.e., what's on your library shelves? Which writers who have critiqued, analyzed, or celebrated noir do you admire?

AJS:   We pretty much covered that through 1992 in the essay in the Encyclopedia, third edition. Since then, I like the informal style of anthologies--even a pastiche like Big Book of Noir over Jim Naremore's Something More than Night. I do refer to the French book by Patrick Brion every so often, but it's even more expensive than The Noir Style.

mac:   Thanks for the info and for your much appreciated time and patience. Signing off from San Jose , CA .

ALAN:   Mr. Silver, What is your opinion on the noir films of Anthony Mann. Some of his early work with Eagle-Lion including Raw Deal, He Walked By Night (with or for Werker), T-Men, The Black Book (histonoir?), and Strange Impersonation are impressive. Do you attribute the relative merit of some these films more to Mann or John Alton? Regards.

AJS:   I think Anthony Mann is a great director, better than many of the others I have cited this evening; but The Naked Spur and El Cid (far removed from John Alton) are not film noir. Certainly Raw Deal and T-Men are significant. All the noir films are worth seeing, but none of them are as good as Devil's Doorway.

ALAN:   Dr. Silver, thanks for the great feedback. I loved The Naked Spur and The Far North by Mann. Will have to see Devils Doorway ASAP. Regards.

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